Really sad story.
Article is written by a British paper, and blames the school shooting on America's lack of gun control laws.
What are your opinions? Should the U.S. have gun control?
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9 comments:
Idiocy? I like the ideal gun control and I will sit down against you with any standard intelligence test.
This is a tired debate with thoughtful and intelligent opinions on moth sides.
I don't really think wild west gun ownership keeps crime rates down. Crime rates are more closely tied to other issues, such as economic conditions, social and family conditions, demographics of young male populations. I think the rate of absentee fathers is much more important when looking at the drime rate.
Just looking at gun laws, I would want to see gun crime rates in jurisdictions with gun control. I think that England and France have gun control and they have far less gun crime, yet, the criminals still have guns there.
In your example, do gun owners keep that pistol loaded under their pillow? If I had a gun (and I don't for religious reasons) I would want it locked ina safe place. I dought I could get to it and load for a midnight gun battle.
I think deaths from accidents and family violence with guns is far greater than midnight break in gun battles.
Practically, Americans do love their guns. Guns and cars. It may be impractical to get gun control because of the tradition of gun ownership, no matter how much good it could do.
Oh, and protection...why can't you protect your home with your hunting rifle? You need a dirty harry hand gun under your pillow?
That is an interesting statistic. Is that gun crime?
I am still skeptical that the rise in violent crime is primarily attributable to gun control. I suspect that other factors are more important to that rise in crime.
I also strongly disagree with allowing concealed hand guns. The gun should be visible. Concealment really scares me and I think it is a terrible violation. Maybe it is ok living in rural areas, but in a city we must live together. If people carry guns, they should have them where everyone can see. I don't want people sneaking guns around. I want to see who has the guns and who does not.
Plus, how do you justify following Jesus and toting a hand gun around? I know you will give me a reason that we can argue. I am just saying, I cannot reconcile the two.
I am not going to even attempt to justify my lust. I also don't think you really mean to open up that can of worms. I jst don't see how that sin invalidates my other views.
I certainly believe in personal defense - national defense even. I believe in the doctrine of justifiable homicide. My question was not to ridicule your belief, but to solicit your views. (I actually respect your views on many topocs) However, for me personally, I have a hard time reconciling the notion of a gun as a machine made to kill another human being something that I would want to own. It is one thing to defend yourself as a reaction to attack. I also see the problem with my reasoning in terms of having to prepare yourself, having a responsibility to protect your family, etc. I am not saying I know the answer on the subject. I am just pointing out a philosophical stumbling block that I have always had with hand guns in particular.
The hand gun is created not to hunt, but for the primary purpose of killing another person. We spend so much time and energy making this machine of personal death and I have an abstract problem with that and a sence of shame.
With larger guns and machines of war, I see the arguement of defense better. That argument loses me with hand guns.
I read that article. I am troubled by its tone. It seems to harken back to our previous long Bible debate. Yes, the Bible is there for us to read and seek to understand. However, people come at it for interpretation with a different tone. I agree with much in this article, but the overall tone is so aggressive and negative. This is a problem that I have with so much of conservative Christian theology. There is a focus on strong legalistic views that please one sense of law and order community. An acknowledgement that we must struggle to understand the reasoning behind the Bible and Jesus is lost.
I take this passage from the article:
“May a Christian defend himself by using deadly force, a firearm? When we think of Bible commands like, "Thou shalt not kill", "Love your enemies" and "Turn the other cheek" we might have a difficult time answering that question. Or, we might have difficulty reconciling our actions (having a gun), with our beliefs and that split is dangerous to our faith. It's a chink Satan can work on to break our faith. We need to know the answer to this question to do what God wants and not leave any opportunity for the devil.”
Of course we struggle! We should struggle, but it is not always Satan trying to trick us. That is such a cop-out. If it is mentally difficult or the slightest bit of a grey area or conflicting, it must be Satan trying to trick us. That is ridiculous. Knowledge and understanding is difficult. We struggle with the obvious conflict with gun ownership and the teachings of Jesus because it is a difficult concept – not because Satan is trying to trick us.
No gun control. Violates constitutional rights. All of the gun control laws do.
Another thought: Concealed handguns are made to kill. All guns are made to kill. Why is that so frightening?
1. I believe we need to get away from thinking about this boogie-man Satan using contradictions to test us. We need to boil our Christian belief down to the core which we cling to and then go about interpreting the other parts of the bible and life that can is grey and contradictory. Oddly enough, when I do that, I become a fundamentalist in a way. I boil down to: (1) Belief in the trinity and that Jesus came to mankind on Earth for a higher designed purpose and that we should study his teachings, (2) Jesus is the key to salvation, (3) Jesus died and was resurrected and this fact is important. Many belief the Bible’s aspect of allegory and literary device extends to #3. I am fundamentalist on that point. For some reason, down deep, I hold true to believe that He lived and he was killed and he was resurrected. Outside of that, most religious ideas and issues are for touch debate and reflection. That is not because Satan is trying to trick us up, but because the universe is complex and difficult for us to grasp. Satan is not trying to trick us up so much as God’s lesson plan is difficult. The analogy of that Greek guy, I forget which right now…about the man trying to learn…the more light, the more he sees of the cave, the more lost he seems to be… This kind of fits with the silly science v. religion debate and those who have a problem with one tiny bit of the Bible if you read it literally so they reject the entire notion of God. Wow. That is buckshot.
Anyway…gun are killing machines so lets don’t ever feel comfortable with them and don’t ever feel too secure in thinking we have Gd’s blessing to blow someone away for any reason.
2. That constitutional issue is not a decided issue. I think that you have taken the pill on that myth. The better argument through case law and textual examination is that there is no constitutional guarantee of an individual right to own a gun. In short, the right to bear arms is a right granted to the several states to do with what they will. If you have an individual right to own a gun, that right comes from your state. The states have the choice to have individual gun ownership or militia control of guns. You, no doubt, are rolling your eyes. However, this is not a fringe view and it is the more reasoned. I invite you to check out the amicus briefs filed with the Fifth Circuit in the Emerson case out of Judge Cumming’s Lubbock federal district court.
3. “Another thought: Concealed handguns are made to kill. All guns are made to kill. Why is that so frightening?” I have never been shot, but I have a sneaky suspicion that it is not pleasant. All guns are made to kill, but hunting rifles have a purpose other than killing humans. The primary purpose of a handgun to kill another human.
Hi Feetman---I haven't been able to blog much lately, but glad to see you're around. I like to read your posts, though I don't always agree.
You had some good points on guns being created to kill. However, if it were not a gun, other objects would be used for such purposes. When in Japan we saw on the news about a man who had grabbed a steak knife and was running through a mall stabbing people and had injured or killed some 5 people. I don't think steak knives should be banned or controlled. The point is that it is an issue coming from within the person and he will use whatever means possible to inflict injury to others.
As for the other statement you said:
I am fundamentalist on that point. For some reason, down deep, I hold true to believe that He lived and he was killed and he was resurrected. Outside of that, most religious ideas and issues are for touch debate and reflection." It sounds like a "cafeteria style" belief system. You like certain ideas of Christianity, but prefer to pick and choose which ones you want to take literally and which ones are just given to vaguely get some idea across. God didn't say" I will leave it all up to you to sort through and you decide what is important. " I don't get that. I read somewhere something that said "when our lives and the Bible don't line up, it is our lives that need to change."
SB--
Of course I agree that, to use a bumper sticker slogan, guns don’t kill people - people kill people. Individuals carry murderous intent and guns are just one of many machines that may be employed for the purpose of killing. Still, would you concede that we must treat a machine whose primary purpose is subverted to turn it into a kill machine different from a machine whose primary purpose is human killing? Would gun control stop murder? No, of course not. Would gun control stop murder with gun? No, but it may decrease the instance of such murder.
"Cafeteria style" belief system? I concede it sounds that way to an extent, but again we go back to our differing view of the Bible. I don’t see it as a literal document. My “fundamentalist view” that Jesus lived, died and was resurrected is not founded in the test of the Bible. Sure, support is there textually, but my belief comes from somewhere else….a faith within.
YOU SAID: “God didn't say" I will leave it all up to you to sort through and you decide what is important. " I don't get that. I read somewhere something that said "when our lives and the Bible don't line up, it is our lives that need to change."
In a way, he did just that. This not debatable: The Bible is a collection of various texts of human authorship written at different times under different circumstances and in different languages and compiled by different committees of men. Are you telling me that is the best God could do if he wanted a “one voice” literal doctrinal guide? That makes no sense to me. Let us follow God with more responsibility and effort. We need to ask why was it written that way? Was there a reason? I think there is, although I cannot say exactly what it would be. Maybe we are suppose to struggle for meaning…maybe that is a point of being here on Earth.
Our lives need to change when not lined up with the Bible? I agree wholeheartedly. The rub is determining when things are not lined up…pinning down that Biblical truth and then application to our lives…..and please, Liz, yes, I know I am falling short. ( ;) )
So how do we get at the conflict of peace and gun ownership? There is the rub. There are different things to think about there and I don’t think I will ever have an answer, but I think the effort in that contemplation and struggle with be the subject (one of the subjects) of my Judgment.
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